Our meeting of the 23rd of January 2019 covered:
- Review of Policies from other NDP’s
- Policy Overlap
- Work Methods
- Traffic
The full minutes from this meeting are here in PDF form.
Our meeting of the 23rd of January 2019 covered:
The full minutes from this meeting are here in PDF form.
Perranporth Neighbourhood Development Plan – BETI Focus Group
Notes: 17th January 2019 (Parish Rooms)
Attendees:
Kevin Havill – Chair (KH)), Philip Moore – Vice Chair (PRM), Mike Callan – (CC Consultant (MC), Andrew Bown (AB), Karen Colam – Parish Council Rep (KC) Roger Kayes (RK), Clive Stevens, Gail Hammond, Paul Hammond, Richard Page, Sharon Hewitt, Jim Hewitt, Richard Eves, Colin Brewer, Mark Trevethen
Apologies: ,William Rogers – Parish Council Rep (WR), Keith Everest
(Aside these have been received from Roger and are also attached as an annex to these notes, Annex 2)
Next meeting: TBC 19:00 – 21-00 at the Parish Rooms, 23rdJanuary 2019
ANNEX 1
Topics raised with Sarah Furley, Group Leader, Neighbourhood Plans, Cornwall Council
Topics raised in black font. S.F. replies in blue.
BETI Summary list of issues 19.12.18
1. Improvements to Perranporth centre
o Design Standards for shop fronts, signage, pedestrian and mobility access, landscaping
You could have a character statement for the town centre, emphasising the positive elements that you wish to reinforce and require new development to demonstrate how it responds to that. Some of the elements listed will not require planning permission.
Here is a simple (ish!) government guide to Advertisement Control which tells you when signs and adverts require consent.
o Use of upper parts above shops with emphasis to create either employment space or permanent residential use rather than holiday lets
The creation of 1 or 2 residential units above a shop is permitted development – so planning permission is not required to do this and you therefore don’t have control over how that property is used.
It is also permitted development for use for up to 2 years of any A1 (retail) property to be used as any use falling within Class A1 (shops), Class A2 (financial and professional services), Class A3 (restaurants and cafes) or Class B1 (business) of that Schedule, for a single continuous period of up to 2 years.
So I’m not sure you can have a policy to encourage this – you might have a statement in your vision for the town centre to show that you wish to encourage this use, but if something doesn’t need planning permission you can’t have a policy for it. You can have a policy to retain commercial uses on the ground floor of the town centre – define your main commercial area and resist changes of use away from commercial on the ground floor (see also Policy 4 of the Cornwall Local Plan.)
o Requirements for rear servicing of new retail space
If you are allocating a site you could masterplan and require this. As a general policy, it may not always be the right solution. If this is about Perranporth main street, it could be a criteria in a general policy about retail in the town centre, but should be caveated ( eg it should be provided ‘where possible’)
o Traffic and parking improvements – one way flow and improved hard & soft landscaping This can’t be achieved through planning policy. Your NDP might include a vision for the town centre and identify projects for traffic flow, on street parking and landscaping improvements. Discuss these with the Highways Network Manager, Adrian Drake adrian.drake@cormacltd.co.uk and prioritise these projects for CIL spend.
o Regulation of Use Classes Order to restrict arcades, betting shops, loan sharks, seasonal trades NDP can’t prevent changes of use which are permitted development – check here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/made(or this is a simpler guide: https://www.knightfrank.co.uk/use-class-orders#A) But could resist change of use where permission isrequired , for example from A1 shop to A5 hot food takeaway.
o Regulation of new food premises with off site consumption being banned from using plastic (Perranporth is a plastic free community) Agree – but this is a project – can’t be controlled by a planning policy. The NDP could resist the proliferation of hot food takeaways if this is an issue, by protecting and retaining retail use.
o Enlargement of non tourist related employment base – presumption in favour
Policy to safeguard existing employment space and supporting new business development (where? Within or adjacent to settlements?) Do you have a clear idea of what business needs are?
o (AirB&B regulation? Currently most residential property used for all year round holiday letting are classified as businesses and do not pay business rates, block accommodation that could free up the housing list and help fuel capital value increases. Permanent homes also used for AirB&B could be seen as different. – Obviously we need to test views but what precedents are there?)
There’s a limit to what you can do through planning, especially in existing housing stock. Currently Air B&B is not regulated. We are aware of the pressures that coastal communities face, but in terms of planning powers, you can only place conditions on new properties. So your NDP can place a principal residence condition on new properties, prioritise affordable housing, which is restricted to local occupancy, or locate development in areas that are less likely to appeal as holiday lets. But you can’t control this market using planning powers – licensing and changes to tax regime are more effective.
Guide Note: principal residence policies
o Promotion of new business spaces at Chiverton, Callestick, Goonhavern and Perranporth. Including designation of sites for new technology hub and other A3, B1 & B8. This answers my question above! Have you got market info to support this?
o Park and Ride parking to alleviate summer traffic jams
NDP could allocate a site for this – but would need a partner to operate the transport.
o Traffic calming – including introduction of 20 mph areas
A project – issue to discuss with Highways Network Manager.
o Cycle lanes on existing roads
A project – issue to discuss with Highways Network Manager and Sustrans (see below)
o Designation of land for Goonhavern bypass
Could safeguard a route – has this been discussed with strategic transport team?
o Safe access to and from bus stops including pavements and ramps – minimum design standards
If you are allocating a development site you can specify that a pavement be provided to link to the nearest bus stop – but otherwise an NDP doesn’t have the power to create pavements. You might use access to bus tops as a criteria in site selection.
o Designated routes for foot and cycle connection from Perranporth to Goonhavern and beyond to Newquay and Truro
use the mapping to understand your PRoW network. Locate development to link into this. Consider creating some permissive paths Permissive paths to link up routes. Speak to Sustrans Area Manager, Simon Murray simon.murray@cornwall.gov.uk or01872 224415 and see technical information note.Sustrans Walking and Cycling Network Guide
o SWW MOU to be pursued. New development to follow similar requirements for drainage anyway
Both William Rogers and I are chasing our contact at SWW!
o Land reserved for community uses including education and healthcare following further expansion of either Perranporth or Goonhavern
Need to liaise with Paul Renowden, the Education Capital Strategy Officer, to see what the plans are for your area: paul.renowden@cornwall.gov.ukor01872 323921 and agree with landowners.
o Inclusion of Coastal Change Management Issues in the NDP to plan for long term effects of rising sea levels and climate change. [Added by Roger: we understand that we should contact Dave Watkins, the CC officer responsible for the Shoreline Management Plan, who happens to live in Perranporth. Other lead contacts?]
Environment Agency – Shaun Pritchard. CC planning is working to coordinate an agreed approach between Dave Watkins and the EA. We have some draft guidance and policies which are still being developed but you’ll be able to adapt these and we’ll supply them as soon as we can get consensus from the various parties.
o Temporary use of designated space(s) for events
What are you trying to achieve here? Do you want to promote areas where this would be supported? Some temporary uses (up to 28 days a year) are usually permitted development – look at Part 4 Class B http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/made but an Article 4 direction means that applications are required in the coastal area of your parish. If you want to include a policy encouraging the use of particular areas for temporary events (with criteria to control traffic, access etc) you can.
o Conversion of 9/10 month year statics to 12 month year lodges – linked to design and use standards see below
Conversion of caravan/static parks near settlements to residential to let – to help match housing list numbers
Could have a policy and define area and criteria. Back this up with an analysis of demand and the tourism market. Look at the Chief Officer Planning Note on Lifting Holiday Conditions
o Designation of location for a visitor centre
NDP could allocate a site and have a related policy setting design, access, parking etc. criteria.
o A strong ambition for some of us to deliver a development vehicle to serve local needs. Does this need inclusion in the NDP and how?
It could be part of your housing vision and strategy. It wouldn’t be a policy – but would form part of your explanation of how you wish to see the parish develop. It might encourage landowners to make land available (which is the hardest part!) see CCLT for further info. https://cornwallclt.org/
ANNEX 2
NDP’s to be considered for their model policies covering BETI topics
Roche: https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/27218390/roche-parish-ndp-final-adopted.pdf
Crantock: https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/34656040/ndp-final-sept18.pdf
St Ives: https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/33135351/revised-nnp-2018-june.pdf
Bude: 2 parts:https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/36440920/bude-stratton-ndp-final-adopted-section-1-5.pdf
https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/36440916/bude-stratton-ndp-final-adopted-section-6-to-app-3.pdf
Illogan: the NDP has just last month passed the examination:
Newquay: https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/33135351/revised-nnp-2018-june.pdf
Chacewater: the NDP has been submittted to Cornwall Council and the formal consultation is underway. (Roger comments:- The NDP is slightly unorthodox, I think it is fair to say):
http://www.chacewater.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Chacewater-Parish-NDP-Final-Draft.pdf
Perranporth Neighbourhood Development Plan – BETI Focus Group
Notes: 23th May 2018 (Parish Rooms)
Attendees:
Kevin Havill – Chair (KH), Philip Moore – Vice Chair (PRM), Mike Callan – CC Consultant (MC), Andrew
Bown (AB), Simon Jefferies (SJ), Karen Colam – Parish Council Rep (KC), Nick Joy (NJ)
Apologies:, Roger Kayes, William Rogers – Parish Council Rep (WR), Jackie Byatt (JB), Richard Mocke
(RM) Tanya Mocke (TM)
– Public spaces
– Housing spaces
– Innovation / Development spaces
For each person, a couple of minutes each – interests, background and current knowledge of NDP process and content
Discussion of themes
Suggestions for additions
Spatial coverage – Goonhavern, Rose, Callestick, Chiverton Cross
It would be helpful to get an idea of who is thinking of getting involved, as opposed to only making an input during meetings or being an observer. (Both are welcome at our meetings, of course.)
Officer’s Report for the outline application leading to the current Linden Homes development on Liskey Hill, Perranporth (dated April 2016, PA15/12074). This may be helpful since it illustrates how particular issues are weighed in the decision-making process. Specifically, these include: layout and scale of housing: highways and access: affordable housing and numbers on the HomeChoice Register: provision of ‘accessible homes’ for the elderly: on-site drainage and SUDS: open space provision: impact on school places: and loss of agricultural land. (Do ignore the discussion about the lack of a five-year supply of housing land which was related to the absence of an approved Local Plan at that stage – this is no longer relevant since the plan was adopted by CC in November 2016 and the current level of outstanding permissions is high.)
There is good evidence from the 2013 Community Plan and the shows of hands at the November public meetings, among other sources, that the community is strongly in favour of restricting as much as possible new large housing developments around our main villages, rather than encouraging more development to increase the number of affordable homes provided for those of the HomeChoice register. It makes sense to double-check this with a question in the questionnaire to be produced around Easter 2019.
An NDP can define settlement boundaries around main villages so that outside of those boundaries, any new housing proposals would only be approved as ‘Rural Exception Sites’ (see following). Within those boundaries, there would be a presumption in favour of infilling and rounding-off. For this reason, we have been advised not to define settlement boundaries around dispersed clusters of houses in the open countryside.
This is covered by policy 9 of the Cornwall Local Plan (also known as Local Plan – Strategic Policies, since it is not the only Local Plan document. Abbreviated here as LP-SP). St Agnes NDP and many others carry forward this policy into their NDP. Importantly, policy 9 refers to small scale sites, with ‘small’ relative to the scale and character of the existing settlement – although this is not explicit in the policy itself. The Affordable Housing (AH) team of CC are heavily involved in negotiations over AH provision on new developments. We are planning to meet up with the AH team member who deals with this area, to follow up various questions raised during the November meetings and to clarify other issues.
The Cornwall LP-SP contains a policy 13 (unnumbered para 8) for the provision of 25% of dwellings as accessible homes on sites larger than 10. This doesn’t always appear to be being implemented in practice and it is not clear why – possibly on grounds of viability. A policy in the St Agnes submitted NDP refers to (1) accessible housing for the elderly (as in Building Regulations Approved Document M4 – Category) and (2) housing for the disabled. It is not clear whether the policy requires that these should all be Affordable Housing. These issues remain to be developed.
In many parishes, there is considerable interest in self and custom-build. One of the key issues is the difficulty in making available suitable sites at a reasonable cost. The questionnaire could usefully survey the level of interest in self and custom building in the parish.
A typical policy is: “All new open market housing, excluding replacement dwellings, will only be supported where there is a restriction to ensure its occupancy as a Principal Residence.” This policy would also be expected to curtail the use of new dwellings for holiday rentals, apart from short-term use in the summer period. Such a policy could, if the community decided, be adopted for Perranporth but not the parts of the parish lying further inland. For the policy to be accepted by the Examiner, we would need to provide sufficient justification for the policy in objective terms. (Background information: last month the Examiner for the St Agnes NDP asked for ‘additional existing evidence, specific to the Neighbourhood Plan Area to support this policy’. This illustrates the importance of objective justification for a policy.)
It may be possible to give more protection to the specific character of selected small villages and hamlets, and possibly selected parts of Perranporth and Goonhavern, by carrying out a ‘Village Character Assessment’ and developing an associated policy. Various parishes have employed an architect to prepare these VCAs. Before doing this, it would be helpful to assess in some way the potential benefit to be gained from such assessments in parts of the parish.
An issue raised during early consultations. Preliminary feedback from CC suggest this may be difficult but the aim is to explore possibilities before including this notion in the forthcoming questionnaire. A Village Character Assessment might assist in developing an objective rationale for such a policy
The LP-SP already includes a policy for infill, but there may be scope for refining this, particularly in terms of settlements within which this would apply and where it would not – particularly small clusters of houses in the more rural parts of the parish.
The term ‘open space’ refers to “land in some form of public ownership that is regularly available for recreational or sporting use by the community, and also includes cemeteries & churchyards.” It ranges from small areas such as equipped children’s play areas, through sports pitches and allotments, to the beach in Perran and large natural green spaces that are open to the public. (Thus there is overlap with sites of interest to the Environment and Heritage group.) An assessment of OS in Perranporth was carried out by Cornwall Council in November 2016, fortunately. (Goonhavern was not included since it fell below the 1000 dwelling threshold adopted county-wide; an assessment could be commissioned for around £600.) Policy 13(2) of the LP-SP calls for OS provision on new housing sites according to local need. OS assessments have been used during negotiations with developers of large sites to achieve OS provision on-site, combined with financial payments for offsite provision or maintenance of existing facilities. The situation following the introduction of the ‘Community Infrastructure Levy’ from 1 January 2019 remains to be established. In summary, the potential benefits of further work on this topic and the inclusion of a policy are unclear at the moment.
This is the proposed agenda and pre meeting notes:
This is a possible Agenda although how we proceed will be moulded to respond to the wishes of people who attend.
For each person, a couple of minutes each – interests, background and current knowledge of NDP process and content
Discussion of themes
Suggestions for additions
Spatial coverage – Goonhavern, Rose, Callestick, Chiverton Cross
It would be helpful to get an idea of who is thinking of getting involved, as opposed to only making an input during meetings or being an observer. (Both are welcome at our meetings, of course.)
The list of themes can be found here.
Rory email sent 2018-11-23 re Declare our vested interests re the NDP
At the meeting pre the public meetings it was brought up that in Oxfordshire a group of developers managed to take over an NDP.
In the discussion it was agreed that we don’t have a problem with the interests and views of developers to be part of the Steering Group, but that we didn’t want this to swamp / dominate.
So to avoid this risk it was discussed that we should all declare, and have this put on the Website, what our interests are.
It was agreed that this is something we should discuss at the next public SG meeting.
– William, can this please be put on the agenda.
Assuming it does get agreed, my draft declaration would be along the lines of what I’ve put below.
– comments very welcome. I’m trying to set out what I see as my situation with it’s potential vested interests and to also more broadly set out my interest in the local NDP.
I own and live in a house in Perranporth. I mostly work from home for a company that builds and maintains Websites for their client base. We Air B&B rent out a self-contained section of our property.
Ever since I moved to Perranporth in 2005 I’ve seen the village and wider parish evolving in a way that I don’t always feel reflects the wishes and ambitions of those who live and work here. There is a strong need for housing provision, in particular for those just starting out, that I feel needs more balance with the evolving and not evolving capacity of what is here. For example the sewage and drainage system, green spaces, the natural environment, employment and business opportunities. I’m also a relatively recent parent to twins, where I’m concerned about the level of local schools and other facilities for younger people.
Regards
Rory
Rory email sent 2018-11-23 re
How to we accept more people to the Steering Group?
Hi,
For those at the meeting ahead of the public meetings, it came up that Roger spoke with me about how we deal with this.
We probably don’t want a Steering Group (SG) that gets too big.
We probably don’t want SG members that don’t contribute.
Our conclusion was that if anybody wants to join the SG that the process should be:
These are very much rough notes / thoughts !
So feedback welcome.
Rory email sent 2018-11-23 re
Perranzabuloe NDP Social media person(s)
Hi,
A thought / question.
Post the public meetings, there’s been a good increase in the level of conversation about development and the NDP in the parish.
Would it be an idea for 1 or 2 people to be given the role of monitoring Facebook (and any other social media that ends up being used) so as to potential respond with their view on questions / issues and also to report back to the Steering Group (SG) meetings on the main topics being discussed and any interesting ideas for the SG to consider.
– the public meetings brought forward ideas for the SG to consider ….
If we don’t have 1 or 2 (or more) allocated people, then we are assuming that those of us who do look at Facebook etc. will notice and report back on anything pertinent to the SG.
I personally don’t have time to monitor the main Facebook Groups, although I do look at them from time to time.
– I’m auto notified and deal with anything flagged to Admin for the groups where I’m an admin, which is 3 groups and 1 page, including the Please Listen Perranzabuloe Parish Council Group and our NDP Group and page, but that is different from monitoring all posts.
William, can you again put this down on our growing list of agenda items.
Regards
Rory
RJ welcomed all new attendees and outlined the aims of the NDP, and the methods that the organisation would follow to achieve success. He outlined what could possibly be achieved, as well as issues that could not be influenced.
Apologies were received from Kevin Havill & Andrew Bown. Eighteen people, including 9 from the Steering Group attended. (Listed in Appendix 1).
Proposed by by Roger Kayes, seconded by Linda Boylen and approved unanimously.
The new NDP hotline for contacting the NDP by the general public is 01872 463572. This is presently routed to Rory’s mobile, but will be transferred to William’s in time,
The programme prescribed for the developing, printing and distribution of the flyers was achieved. The public meetings attracted a total in excess of 160. 130 filled in the forms to sign up to the NDP, and hopefully assist in its production. The meetings have been regarded as a success, producing much discussion throughout the Parish.
Philip Henwood and Chris Ashby-Zwozdiak have volunteered to coordinate the social media for the NDP.
RJ has created a database of names details and preferences on ‘Mailchimp’
No reports were received from Focus Groups. The Groups are tasked for meeting up (including new people who expressed interest at the public meetings), and preparing to report at the next SG. It was agreed that reports would focus on substantive, on-the-ground issues that they believed could go into the NDP and achieve benefit for the community.
The SG aims to be able to send out the questionnaire to all residents of Perranzabuloe before Easter 2019
A grant of £4,000 has been received from ‘Localities’ to cover the cost of production and distribution of the first flyer
A method of adoption of new SG & FG members should be put into practice. Roger Kayes was to confirm any statutory limit on the size of the Steering Group (SG), but it was felt it should not exceed 15 to 20.
Anybody wishing to join the SG should attend 2 or 3 SG meetings to confirm that it’s what they expect and that they still wish to be a part of the central team. If they still want to join the SG, they should then get an existing member of the Steering Group to propose them as well as a seconder. This will then be put to a vote of the existing SG. It was suggested by RJ that SG members who miss more than 3 out of 4 meetings should be contacted to determine what were their long term plans regarding the group.
Prospective new members should be directed to the documents page of the www.perranplan.co.uk Website which includes links to more information on NDP’s, including other Cornwall NDP’s and NDP examiners reports.
Membership of the Focus Groups will be down to the heads of the Focus Groups and escalated to the SG if needed.
The terms of Reference for the NDP shall be revised to reflect these decisions.
Questions were asked regarding the school requirements of the Parish. It was explained that this was outside of the NDP’s remit. However land can be identified for educational needs- Similarly land can be identified or other needs (e.g. Health Centres)
It was agreed that all members of the Steering Group and Focus Groups would write up a brief introduction about themselves and yes/no answer to some interest questions. These write ups would be placed upon the web site..William Rogers would prepare this in relation to property development interests, but also to confirm that the person lives +or works in the parish. The introduction and standard question responses will be put on the Website and a record kept by our NDP secretary
By way of example, Rory Jenkins has written up his introduction (see appendix 2)
Reports from Focus Groups
The next meeting was scheduled for Thursday 7th February 2019. It is aimed to hold SG meetings in the second week of each month, moving from Tuesday to Wednesday to Thursday month by month. Consequently the provisional dates for 2019 are:-
The meeting finished at 9.15pm
I live, with my wife and young kids, in our Perranporth (Droskyn) property. We Air B&B rent out a self-contained section of our property. I mostly work from home, for a company that builds and maintains Websites for their client base. Ever since I moved to Perranporth in 2005 I’ve seen the village and wider parish evolving in a way that I often feel doesn’t reflect the wishes and ambitions of those who live and work here. There is a strong need for housing provision, in particular for those just starting out, that I feel needs more balance with the evolving and not evolving capacity of what is here. For example the sewage and drainage system, green spaces, the natural environment, employment and business opportunities. I’m also a relatively recent parent to twins, where I’m concerned about the level of local schools and other facilities for younger people.
As part of creating awareness of the NDP process starting, we had 3 public events in late November of 2018:
All 3 events increased the number of people who signed up to be kept updated as to progress. The details were added to our Mailchimp e-mailing list. Tally of paper sign up forms from these events
This took our e-mail list (Mailchimp) from 33 to 127 and within a few days of the evnts 135.
– 2023 update: The Mailchimp mailing list grew steadily to 153 recipients being email notified re the October 2019 meetings to discuss the initial survey findings.
The main notes used for the presentation done at these events are below.
A redacted example of the sign up form is below:

As expected given that Perranporth it’s the largest settlement in the parish, this was the most attended event of the 3:

Can everybody hear me?
I’m Rory, current chair of the Neighbourhood Development Plan team for this parish.
The format of this evening is going to be that:
It’s a mechanism for local communities to influence planning decisions where they live and work.
At the top, central government determines a top tier of policies and plans for developments.
Then, below that, the likes of Cornwall Council can create (and have created) a regional local plan.
Then, within the constraints of both the national and regional policies we can create an NDP for the very local level.
A key point here is that we must stick within the national and local policies and plans.
Once we have an NDP for our parish, planning decisions will have to consider our NDP.
To create an NDP:
This is likely to take about 18 months, possibly 2 years, from now.
We need not only as many peoples views on issues we might be able to influence via an NDP but people who can help with the work. On a permanent or temporary basis. All help is great. We’re a bunch of unpaid, diverse enthusiastic volunteers.
Firstly, an NDP can steering some aspects of developments towards what the community wants. For example, protecting the environment and natural landscape, the impact on business and other infrastructure and where developments happen.
Two Cornwall examples of this are:
1st Example. St Ives managed to put in a Second Homes policy into their NDP. This will reduced developers focusing on projects targeting those who have no plan to live full time in St Ives.
2nd Example. Earlier I said an NDP sits below national and regional policy. A lot of you have probably heard that in Crantock a lot of people are upset that their NDP did not stop the approval of an expansion of an already approved development. Yes, that’s true, because of higher level legislation, but what I didn’t realise until I asked Roger, the lead of our housing team, is that because of what is in their NDP the developer was required to increase the Affordable Housing provision from 30% to 50%. For me, that’s a positive for Crantock.
Secondly, as you can gather from these 2 examples, an NDP can put onerous and potentially costly requirements on developers.
That means that if our parish does not have an NDP, but others do, developers have the potential to make more money in our parish and may therefore target our parish. Surrounding parishes either have or are are well on their way to having an NDP.
Thirdly, from the 1st of January 2019 there is going to be a Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL) of up to £100 per square meter floorspace. If our parish has an NDP, the parish council will get 25% of this to spend in the parish. If we don’t have an NDP the parish council will get 15%, so 10% less.
– if our NDP includes a ‘second-homes restriction policy’ CIL will drop to zero.
Forth. This project is likely to throw up other issues that, based on what has happened with other NDP projects, leads to a group forming and taking this on.
An NDP can’t stop development it can nudge it towards what we want.
So lets find out what our community wants.
Then lets work out, from this what can be put in our Neighbourhood Development Plan.
Next up are the heads of our current groups: